Athiests

[Lori A. Woods]

What is the best way to witness to a self-proclaimed athiest? He appears to want to tie my hands and wants scientific evidence when quoting scripture. I realize that some people just want to play games, but he keeps coming back and I don't want to ignore him. There has to be a reason why someone like this spends so much time and effort on something he professes not to believe in? Of course, not being science minded, I tend to ignore his need for back-up and tell him what the Bible says anyways. He continues to communicate and is only 29--has researched all creation videos, etc. and feels it is his "moral" responsibility to stand up and say "this is wrong". The guy is confused, obviously, but as we know the Lord works in mysterious ways--be grateful for any input...thanks to anyone who may respond.

[Jonathan C.]

Lori, you might want read up on presuppositional apologetics. Most atheists presuppose that the highest source of revelation is human experience (taste, touch, smell, sight, sound) which is why they champion science and the scientific method. Christians presuppose that God is the highest source of revelation through the Bible. It would be most beneficial if he could be persuaded to accept the revelation from God over his human experience. This is primarily the work of the Holy Spirit.

Pray for your atheist friend, share the gospel of Jesus Christ with him, and consider trying to show him the errors in his thinking by embracing an erroneous set of presuppositions. You might want to read some on epistemology, reformed epistemology, naturalism, rationalism, empiricism, and evolution.

You may also want to read up on the Big Bang, which violates the law of inertia, and is logically impossible because it creates an “uncaused cause.” Also, consider reading some articles from the Institute for Creation Research on the origin of the first living organism. It is quite impossible for a chemical reaction to produce life. Anyone who has had a college level biology class and knows the amazing complexity of a cell should know this.

I've recently had a run in with an agnostic who believes in evolution. I'm no apologetics expert but this was some of the good avice that was given to me.

In the end it is only God who can convert this atheist. Share your faith with him, and remember to not case your pear to the swine. You'll eventually have to end the dialog if he is uninterested in what you have to say.

[Lori A. Woods]

Where would I find presuppositional apologetics? I think I understand the term by the context of your paragraph. My college education was very short and limited at best. But I did point out to him that something coming from nothing was very bad science. He came back with a "singular" and basically told me that something didn't come from nothing and if I could accept that God always was, is, will be, then I should be able to accept this "singular" he was talking about. Tell me, does that sound to you like he knows creation came from something--but maybe HE doesn't want it to be intelligent, have a name, or any authority over him? I do intend to try to find some material on the subjects you've named. This has been a most interesting experience, but I certainly don't want to be an embarrassment to my Lord.
I know God does it ALL (and I'm so glad) and I very much appreciate your input. Thank you! : )

[KEVIN BOURNE]

Lori, don't let the devil take you away from Scripture. We believe what we believe, because of Scripture. We can see the Truth in Scripture. We know (should know) that God is in control of everything; therefore it is God that he needs to convince him of things. He needs to be shown/told how reliable Scripture (The Bible) is. If he doesn't believe that there is a God and doesn't accept/believe that he has broken God's rules/law etc; then he wont believe anything that he needs to know. Lori, stick with/to Scripture :-).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb8IpU7asRA

Ps. Anyway, what sort of question is his asking, that he wants science back-up answers to?

[Lori A. Woods]

He won't get me away from scripture, I assure you, in fact, he's unknowingly helping me to dig deeper into my Bible which I happen to love doing. I have seen him on several you-tube "Christian"? sites and in Christian chat rooms. I just sort of monitored these places for awhile, but never "jumped in" and pretty soon--he's got them arguing w/ each other. He's used to getting away with it because, sadly enough, as we know, so many people carry a Bible, but don't read it--yet they want to defend it and he has a database to auto-retort many subjects. I really do think this is the first time somebody hasn't just lost their temper and told him to get lost. We've had dialogue for about a month now--other than maintaining that we are all delusional--he really hasn't been rude to me personally--but I keep telling him "we can not, at this point in time, agree on the subject because we don't have the same standard--so what is it he hopes to accomplish?" He maintains that he wants to know how I came to believe what I do. So, he misunderstands, misinterprets, misuses much of scripture so I tell him what the Bible actually says and he moves on to something else. It's not like I don't have the time, and I do pray for him every night and will continue to, but I have never "met" anyone with so much "Bible knowledge" and no idea what to do with it except to try and confuse other people. I really can't tell if he wants to know the truth or if he really thinks he can pluck me out of God's hand. He seems sincere, but it's obvious that for the time being He doesn't want any part of our "mean, intolerant God who would commit genocide, etc." It hasn't gotten ugly and if it does, I'd have no problem just telling him we cannot discuss it anymore.
The science part--he was trying to establish rules (maybe he was on a debating team) and one of them was that if I couldn't back it up with science, I could not quote scripture. So I threw out the panacea and the drifting continents and gave him Gen. 10:25, and mentioned that the planets don't all spin in any uniform direction which seems contrary to "evolution", but he then ignored the simple statement of our Lord about the land being divided during the days of Peleg (thousands of years before the continents were "discovered" to be drifting) and jumped into cosmological science being different than evolution science--and then he said he was almost positive someone had "gotten to me w/ that false creation literature and I just didn't have any outside help to..." fix my ignorance.
AT what point am I "casting my pearls before swine..." if he continues to move on to something else.
On a personal note, I don't sleep regularly nor well, so sometimes I may "appear a little stupid" to him
and other times I communicate a little better. I think it throws him. The Lord does work in mysterious ways. He certainly has in my life. If you monitor any "Christian" or "Psuedo-Christian" sites, Kevin, he goes by the name Dalmakator (I have no idea what that means if it means anything)
but if you reply to anything he says--I guarantee you--he will respond to you.
Thanks so much for your input--need an outside opinion (from the inside...lol) I'm going to look at the video you put forth and appreciate your response. I haven't really learned my way around this site yet, but am very touched by the number of people who have responded in such a short amount of time. Don't know if I'll be able to respond to everyone or if I'm even supposed to, ('n I am tired so probably in my "stupid mode") thanks again...Lori

[Michael]

I was committed and rabid atheist from age 20 to age 33, at which time the Lord was pleased to turn me around. There are two things that atheists are weak in: (1) philosophy and (2) logic. They pride themselves on being "scientific" but few are truly aware of the scientific method and it's limits. Thus, their beliefs are often based upon disproving the Bible scientifically.

I think presuppositional approaches are the great. Think of the atheist as one who is trying to stay afloat in a pool on top of a beach ball. His entire way of thinking is based upon his foundation (the bobbing beach ball). Attack the presuppositions and he can be toppled.

He will use the shotgun approach, throwing a dozen questions at you. You cannot answer all of them, so therefore, he wins and you lose. Don't try to answer the questions. Find out what is "gun" is and try to grab the gun instead of dodging bullets.

One good start is the concept of random occurrences in the universe, that is, the theory of chaos. It is foundational to man-centered sciences, especially evolution. Ask him if he believes that the universe is a collection of random events. He will answer yes. Ask him if he drives to work the same way everyday. Ask him if he goes to the supermarket and looks for milk in the cereals isle. Of course, he will see, inside that his life is not "random" but predictable. But don't seek victory in his acquiescence. Our pride prevents admission of being wrong.

The idea is to keep poking the beach ball. He is the one who is precariously positioned and ready to topple, not you. You have the Word of God . . .THE truth. He has a collection of man-made hopes and slippery answers. You may not see his conversion, but that is not your job. Simply keep jabbing at his beachball with truth. Eventually, I toppled. Praise God.

Mike

[Umve]

Lori,

You may want to find some books by Gordon H Clark about christian apologetics. you can get his lectures on the defense of the christian faith on www.trinityfoundation.org. These guys are not evidentialists nor do they believe that science is reliable to defend the Gospel. My personal view toward science is that science is a useful tool for making our lifestyle easier and making the subduing of the earth easier to the glory of God, but it cannot tell the truth nor come to a knowledge of the truth because it is constantly changing.

and as for some replys you can look up science books if you choose to but the bible can defend itself without the need for science. it has in the past and can now. in fact i do not believe that science can sufficiently defend scripture.

Dr. Gordon Clark defends the scripture with scripture by presupposing the inerrancy of scripture like scripture commands. also remember Christ defended himself by constantly quoting what he revealed earlier in history.

[Greg]

Lori,

Regarding the ideas of presuppositional apologetics, etc. you can learn quite a bit with some good articles written by Greg Bahnsen. A lot of it boils down to simply taking the arguments made by the atheist to their logical conclusion. Virtually every time it will be shown to fail, or will actually end up arguing against itself. There are several great articles covering these ideas online at Answers in Genesis, where they are publishing many of his writings. You can find the series here. As of today, there are eleven articles in addition to the announcement.

In the article announcing the series entitled, " New Apologetics Web Series with Greg Bahnsen, Ph.D." they said, "Dr. Bahnsen not only showed that rationality and Christianity can go together, he demonstrated that they must go together." And the footnote for that quote shows from Scripture that it's true.

In the article Presuppositional Procedure, he says, "In his proposal for a “consistently Christian methodology of apologetics,” Van Til’s suggestion was that “we claim . . . that Christianity alone is reasonable for men to hold. It is wholly irrational to hold any other position than that of Christianity."

Although all the articles are very good, you can learn a lot from this one: Presuppositional Reasoning with False Faiths. (Atheism is just as much a "faith" as any cult.)

And yes, be sure to keep this person - as well as anyone with whom you share your faith - in your prayers.

In His service,
Greg

[Lori A. Woods]

Greg,

Appreciate the "click-ons". I am not computer savvy and it really helps a lot. I have bookmarked the series along with another site sent to me. This is very helpful and I look forward to investigating them all. I am learning so much with this whole experience and am sure that these materials will not only be helpful for him (God willing), but for me as well. Never ceases to amaze me how deep the Bible goes, and yet, I know--I'm still in the "shallow end of the pool"...lol

God Bless You,

Lori